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And should we try to fix them? Or is that "playing God"? Disrespecting those people with such a genome?
I'm reminded of the congenitally deaf couple who *deliberately* had a child with congenital deafness.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1916462.stm
Was this child abuse?
I'm reminded of the congenitally deaf couple who *deliberately* had a child with congenital deafness.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/1916462.stm
Was this child abuse?
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, January 23, 2008 - 11:16 PM"Was this child abuse?"
From whose perspective? -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, January 24, 2008 - 2:57 PMFrom the kid's.
Is deliberately having a blind kid morally any different than operating on a fetus or baby and chopping out its eyes? Or injecting a neurotoxin into the fetus or baby to kill its optic nerve? -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Fri, January 25, 2008 - 6:28 PMI don't know the answers. I worked in the medical field for a long time, and saw so many people so deranged, so broken, that if deafness was their only problem, they would consider it a miracle. Genetically defective people regularly make decisions to produce children they know will be lacking in some way, or at the very least - have a strong likelihood of possessing a serious problem. And modern medicine fosters these broken creatures along, whether they're conscious or not, even though many of them will cost half a million dollars a year to keep alive, and knowing that these sorry souls will never do anything productive for society. And then, of course, we kill the healthy ones before they've even had the chance to pop out. These are thorny issues with opinions all over the map, in many cases the opinions split close to 50/50. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 7:24 AM"Soon it will be a sin for parents to have a child which carries the heavy burden of genetic disease." ~ Bob Edwards -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 3:06 PMthis discussion reminds me of the eugenics approach, which as i understand it is scientifically unfeasible because of the interdependency and multiple-effect nature of genes.
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, January 30, 2008 - 3:09 PMgenetic errors occur only in relation to beings with interests and goals. aside from that, genes just are, even if they lead to non-viable creatures. there is no master planner who goes "oops." -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, January 31, 2008 - 6:19 AM"genetic errors occur only in relation to beings with interests and goals. aside from that, genes just are, even if they lead to non-viable creatures. there is no master planner who goes "oops.""
A functional analysis is completely appropriate even in the absence of intention. If a gene is malfunctioning why would it not be appropriate to refer to this as an error? When cancer arises because a malfunction in a protooncogene or cancer repressor gene produces a malfunction in the normal cycle of cell replacement, is this not an error? -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 2:45 PMan error according to whom? that's my question. we are so comfortable assuming purpose with living creatures, we forget we are just a particular kind of quasi-replicating matter configuration with mechanisms for accumulating structures. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Fri, February 1, 2008 - 10:52 PM"An error according to whom?"
Um...an error to anyone who thinks 'malfunction' and 'error' are synonyms in this context? It doesn't involve a value judgment, it relies on a simple functional analysis. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Sat, February 2, 2008 - 1:15 PMdoes anything objectively have a function? From nature's point of view, I'd say no. From the parents viewpoint, or the being suffering from a problem, yes. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Sat, February 2, 2008 - 3:05 PM"does anything objectively have a function? From nature's point of view, I'd say no. From the parents viewpoint, or the being suffering from a problem, yes."
Evolutionary biology is impossible without functional analysis, so yes, absolutely, it is appropriate to talk about features of living things in terms of their function. You can add all the caveats you believe are necessary about the illusion of design without a designer, but you can't--in the end--dispense with the functional analysis or the language it requires. With regard to physiology, morphology and health (medicine or pathology), especially, the living body needs to be viewed as an organic machine composed of functionally integrated systems and parts. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Sun, February 3, 2008 - 1:40 PMyes, and evolutionary biology is a human endeavor that often has human valuations interwoven into it. All I ask is that for a moment, when talking about what is, that we see the basic neutrality of nature itself. and from that point of view, nothing is wrong or right, in error or correct. Give me this, and I will join you on the hill of function-oriented thinking. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, February 6, 2008 - 12:30 AM"All I ask is that for a moment, when talking about what is, that we see the basic neutrality of nature itself. and from that point of view, nothing is wrong or right, in error or correct."
"Nature" is an overly broad concept. When we talk about, life, we are not talking about "nature". We are talking about replicators in general, and selfish replicators in particular. From the standpoint of a selfish replicator, what hinders replication is a problem (wrong, if you like). There's no right or wrong for a stone. For a bacterium or other organsim, I'm not so sure. If you like to see a society as a super-organism, then there can be "rights and wrongs" for societies, too. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, February 6, 2008 - 12:42 PMthis is magical thinking. what's so special about "replicating" that it demands an entire revamping of essence? please don't knee-jerk respond, i know your knee-jerk already. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, February 6, 2008 - 1:01 PM"this is magical thinking. what's so special about "replicating" that it demands an entire revamping of essence?"
No knee-jerk until I understand your objection!! What does what I wrote have to do with "essence"? What was "magical" about what I wrote? -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, February 6, 2008 - 1:43 PMi am saying that no one or nothing except the "replicator" itself (or its buddies) "cares" about "errors," and that's only because those who care replicate better. matter is matter is matter, replicator or not. we are talking about essence here, not experience. essentially, there is no error. errors only occur to beings with agendas, wherein some process does not meet some expectation. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 12:14 AM"i am saying that no one or nothing except the "replicator" itself (or its buddies) "cares" about "errors,"
Well, sure. But isn't that the essence of a replicator? You are not searching for "universal truths" are you? -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 8:34 AMI figure if we are saying what is true in the universe, might as well reference universal truths!
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 8:36 AMalso, it is not the essence of a replicator. There have been far more. "failures" than "successes."
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 7:22 PMthis exchange reminded me of how sometimes you confuse human constructs or our limited viewpoint for being universally true, in examples such as the MUH or AP! -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Sun, February 10, 2008 - 9:12 PMNot really, of course errors are only errors "from the POV of the replicator itself". But that does not render them meaningless!
There's no real comparison with AP/MUH, those arguments are logically universal, whereas the concept of "error" makes sense only from a particular POV.
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Wed, February 6, 2008 - 12:34 AM"Give me this, and I will join you on the hill of function-oriented thinking."
Sorry, I can't give you that. I am basically proposing that we can see the normative emergent from our basic understanding of life as selfish replicators.
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 9:18 AM"yes, and evolutionary biology is a human endeavor that often has human valuations interwoven into it. All I ask is that for a moment, when talking about what is, that we see the basic neutrality of nature itself. and from that point of view, nothing is wrong or right, in error or correct. Give me this, and I will join you on the hill of function-oriented thinking."
If you accept functional analysis (which I do not agree is subjective or value-based) then why don't you accept the concept of malfunction? And if you accept the concept oft malfunction, why are you insisting on distinguishing this from error. It makes no sense to me. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 4:14 PMIf you're looking at the issue from a perspective where nature's microworld is a deterministic process then the concept of an error doesn't really exist within the context of the superposition of interlacing waves (or, if you prefer - particles). If you're looking at the same situation from the viewpoint of the mother, whose baby was just born dead because the infant emerged with its brain dangling outside the skull, I assume she might think there had been a problem, that somewhere along the way an error had occurred. Both perspectives could be correct in proper context.
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Thu, February 7, 2008 - 7:20 PMi think i can articulate it better. it really has to do with what we take to be the import and meaning of function more than anything else. i'm trying to be honest with my physicalism, and recognize that though beings with purposes and structures with function have indeed evolved, that these facts are in and of themselves not indicative of anything much and are predictable by the logic of selection. i suppose you could say on one hand i am warning against metapurposes or metafunctions, and trying to scale back and be specific about what we're considering to have function and purpose to the degree necessary, and on the other hand asking that we not wax poetic about the fact that function and purpose have evolved. so, in sum, functions and purposes have evolved, but this is predictable from the logic of selection and shouldn't be interpreted as meaning anything outside the scope of a particular instance.
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Sat, February 2, 2008 - 9:05 PMI have no issues with "the function of chlorophyll is photosynthesis".
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Sat, February 2, 2008 - 9:24 PM"I have no issues with "the function of chlorophyll is photosynthesis"."
ok. I don't understand then why you might have trouble saying that a point mutation that renders chlorophyll unable to accomplish photosynthesis is a genetic error then. What you are essentially talking about here is a failure of the copying system, and a failure of the proofreading/repair system, leading to a failure of the photosynthetic system. -
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Re: Are there such things as "genetic errors"?
Sun, February 3, 2008 - 1:42 PMyou're confusing Jonathan with me. He's been the teleologist from the start.
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