is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

topic posted Sun, March 30, 2008 - 3:07 PM by 
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"[T]here are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'." - Dawkins, "Lying for Jesus"

richarddawkins.net/article,...d-Dawkins


what do you think? are caring for the poor and universal health care "very un-Darwinian"? why is altruism of this kind being considered un-Darwinian by dawkins?

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  • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

    Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:15 AM
    because the altruism response for people unrelated to us would fall under the actual domain of whatever altruism module is being activated rather than the proper domain?

    haha.
    • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

      Mon, March 31, 2008 - 10:55 AM
      how about caring for poor people so a pissed off subordinate class doesn't develop that ends up chopping your head off? is that un-Darwinian?

      dawkins' view can be so myopic sometimes. he's obviously not familiar with the more sophisticated models of altruism developed since axelrod that take more into account reputation, proximity, likelihood of conflict, etc. also, the work on the evolution of the social contract by skyrms and others is clearly darwinian. he is intellectually biased against non-kin altruism clearly, and makes it into an impenetrable conundrum when it's not.
      • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

        Tue, April 1, 2008 - 7:32 AM
        Altruism is found in other species. A neighbor of mind's cat is nursing a litter of squirrels, for example.
        • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

          Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:27 AM
          i still think that this kind of thing, that in particular, is related to the fact that different stimulus can fall within the domain of the altruism module being activated than the stimulus that drove the evolution of that module. and in that sense is ¨"undarwinian." i think dawkins is perfectly aware of that, and that´s what he means when he says something is undarwinian. he certainly would accept that altruism exists and as a darwinian would expect that it evolved. whether or not he accepts variations beyond kin selection for the evolution of altruism seems to go a bit beyond the point he´s making.
        • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

          Sun, April 20, 2008 - 12:09 AM
          "A neighbor of mind's cat is nursing a litter of squirrels, for example."

          this just struck me. is this confirmed by you personally? are you sure this is happening? i admit to being shocked. are you talking about baby squirrels sucking on the teats of a lactating feline mother?
          • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

            Sun, April 20, 2008 - 5:56 AM
            "this just struck me. is this confirmed by you personally? are you sure this is happening? i admit to being shocked. are you talking about baby squirrels sucking on the teats of a lactating feline mother?"

            Feral cats are semi-social. Females will cooperate in raising their young (babysitting and possibly nursing the young of other females) to prevent males from killing their litters. It's apparent' altruism rather than true altruism (kin selection among related females)...maybe a little reciprocal altruism thrown in. That sort of behaviour seems easy to displace. Dogs and wolves are famous for it.
  • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 9:53 PM
    We may not be able to understand, given current studies, "true altruism", but I think that in modern society, given the information age, some of the more educated humans living in large urban centers have narrowed their in-group to a very select group of individuals with esoteric ideals that pronounce a "greater good"; something that will help everyone. However, these individuals, in these in-groups, are participating in the same in-group bias that permeates the rest of organic life.
    ]
    There may be, a turning point, a "paradigm shift" perhaps; a point at which some of the individuals within homo sapiens start working toward the common good of man because this behavior will increase the overall fitness of our species. This behavior could even grow throughout the majority of mankind, but I think it unlikely. Our species is as fit as any could expect to be.
    It may be possible for our species, in it's spiral toward the development(destruction) of all resources, to adapt toward a more sustainable relationship with said resources. It may even have been possible, given our position on top of the food chain, and the incredible amount of mutative and genetic drift freedom given this position; for us to deleteriously develop a true empathy to other consciousness that may even dictate the actions we take given consequences outside of our own reproductive freedom.

    Could we be true custodians of ours planet? Any lasting understandings that would dictate this would be a result of adaptations that prevent our destruction, rather that empathic minds that truly care about the suffering of all other life.

    As for our efforts to feed the hungry:

    The size of a population is regulated by the number of resources available to it. There are always more mouths than there is food. If you start artificially inflating the resources available to the population, the next generation with have to cope with less resources and less of those offspring will survive to reproduce.

    In other words, if you feed ten starving African children (or whatever nationality), the next generation, fifty starving African children are going to need those resources. They are going to starve, because of you.
    • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

      Wed, April 2, 2008 - 10:58 AM
      "There are always more mouths than there is food."

      this surely isn't in any ecology textbook! why do you believe this? i don't think this is true for humans on the whole, and not even for many other creatures. it clearly depends.


      "If you start artificially inflating the resources available to the population, the next generation with have to cope with less resources"

      the key is to enable people to participate in trade and not remain recipients of hand-outs. history has shown over and over that trade is almost always beneficial for everyone and lessens conflict generally. what we are seeing now with globalization is that those nation-states that have ideologies that interfere with trade are being pressed hard. global capitalism is the order of the day, and if you're not signed on then...

      it's obvious that we need:

      1) free birth control and widespread sex education that is sex-positive and teaches responsible procreation, including easy access to early-term abortion and morning-after pills

      2) universal basic health care and ultra-basic services as both a safety net against a desperate subordinate class forming, and as insurance for us all, should we trip on the few steps that might result in our being homeless or broke

      3) taxation that reflects sustainable values, like taxing rich people addicted to conspicuous consumption and those who have more than a few kids

      4) hook up poor communities with basic hygiene, clean water (cheap UV units could save millions of lives) and food security -- this also blocks diseases from running rampant that could additionally spill over into developed areas

      all of these serve the interests of everyone, to varying degrees and in different ways. none of them are "pure altruism," whatever the hell that is supposed to mean.


      • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

        Wed, April 2, 2008 - 2:14 PM
        i completely agree blue-j. one of the most powerful patterns that we seem to see is that high living standards (i.e. food) lead to low birth rates. so the fifty african children model seems a bit, um, inadequate. yeah, that's a good word. not another word i could think of. no.

        as for there always being more mouths than food, check out what amartya sen had to say about that.
        • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

          Wed, April 2, 2008 - 5:11 PM
          "one of the most powerful patterns that we seem to see is that high living standards (i.e. food) lead to low birth rates"

          yes, and i wonder about this trend, if true. can the same conditions used in looking at r/K selection among our animal cousins help us look at birth rates among different groups of people? well, first we have to look to be sure you're right. it is interesting that among humans we don't see greater fecundity among the powerful, just a lot more influence and one would presume insurance for the safety and well-being of future generations of offspring. seems like it's temporal rather than spetial fecundity of a sort!
          • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

            Wed, April 2, 2008 - 9:14 PM
            r/K is high birthrate/low investment, low birthrate/high investment right?

            i mean the explanation that i've always heard for low birth rates in first world nations is that in an unstable, and often agricultural society, with no social security plan for older people the only hope of having a reasonably comfortable middle age is having a surviving adult male child. an adult female child won't work because she would go live with another family and support them. since instability and poverty are associated with high infant mortality rates and agriculture as an economic model requires workers in the family in general, this provides a practical impetus to have a lot of children. in first world countries without that economic model, the prosperity to earn enough money to support yourself independently, the possibility of having a comfortable old age based on that money and social institutions, low infant morality rates, high status of women allowing them to enforce contraception, the availability of safe and legal abortion, all combine to create lower birthrates.
          • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

            Thu, April 3, 2008 - 9:05 AM
            "yes, and i wonder about this trend, if true. can the same conditions used in looking at r/K selection among our animal cousins help us look at birth rates among different groups of people? well, first we have to look to be sure you're right. it is interesting that among humans we don't see greater fecundity among the powerful, just a lot more influence and one would presume insurance for the safety and well-being of future generations of offspring. seems like it's temporal rather than spetial fecundity of a sort!"

            You might be interested in this paper: Pettay JE, Helle S, Jokela J, Lummaa V (2007) Natural Selection on Female Life-History Traits in Relation to Socio-Economic Class in Pre-Industrial Human Populations. PLoS ONE 2(7):e606.

            ABSTRACT:
            Life-history theory predicts that resource scarcity constrains individual optimal reproductive strategies and shapes the
            evolution of life-history traits. In species where the inherited structure of social class may lead to consistent resource
            differences among family lines, between-class variation in resource availability should select for divergence in optimal
            reproductive strategies. Evaluating this prediction requires information on the phenotypic selection and quantitative genetics
            of life-history trait variation in relation to individual lifetime access to resources. Here, we show using path analysis how
            resource availability, measured as the wealth class of the family, affected the opportunity and intensity of phenotypic selection
            on the key life-history traits of women living in pre-industrial Finland during the 1800s and 1900s. We found the highest
            opportunity for total selection and the strongest selection on earlier age at first reproduction in women of the poorest wealth
            class, whereas selection favoured older age at reproductive cessation in mothers of the wealthier classes. We also found clear
            differences in female life-history traits across wealth classes: the poorest women had the lowest age-specific survival
            throughout their lives, they started reproduction later, delivered fewer offspring during their lifetime, ceased reproduction
            younger, had poorer offspring survival to adulthood and, hence, had lower fitness compared to the wealthier women. Our
            results show that the amount of wealth affected the selection pressure on female life-history in a pre-industrial human
            population.
      • Unsu...
         

        Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

        Thu, April 3, 2008 - 9:00 AM
        1) free birth control and widespread sex education that is sex-positive and teaches responsible procreation, including easy access to early-term abortion and morning-after pills

        I'm not really an expert in this and sorry if I'm being ignorant here, but haven't economists shown that birth control and sex education don't really do much to control the population, whereas a major stimulus to population stability is education for women? Then children become expensive luxuries, and people stop reproducing. As an ancient historian I can say that if people don't want to reproduce, they don't need birth-control lessons to avoid that.
        • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

          Thu, April 3, 2008 - 10:37 AM
          "I'm not really an expert in this and sorry if I'm being ignorant here, but haven't economists shown that birth control and sex education don't really do much to control the population, whereas a major stimulus to population stability is education for women? "

          i'm not an expert either, and i don't think we have any expert in population dynamics proper, so please feel free to think out loud with the rest of us!

          to your point, i don't know that what i'm suggesting is happening anywhere that i can see, so i'm not sure where this kind of study has taken place... shit, looks like research is in order... where did you get this impression? can you point us anywhere?

          women having a broad range of opportunities in occupations and education choices would be a vital component to any population management effort, i'd think. otherwise, they would be railroaded into centering their lives around child-rearing, and this is the center we'd be trying to shift. what do you see as the connection?
          • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

            Thu, April 3, 2008 - 12:00 PM
            i think the point is that education is useless without the economic and social capacity to implement it. and also rather patronizing, assuming that the poor and the brown can't manage their own bodies without the help of middle aged white people coming in and teaching them about birth control.

            but regardless the point that comprehensive sex education, and access to life management resources like condoms, birth control, and legal and safe abortion are important stands. this is of course taking place in the context of religious fundamentalists in america exporting their sex-negative stupidity to the rest of the world through cutting off funding to aid programs that don't tow their anti-abortion, sex negative, party line.
    • Re: is caring for the poor "un-Darwinian"?

      Wed, April 2, 2008 - 9:23 PM
      as for all that adaptation business, it seems pretty obvious to me that the challenges we're facing are on a more immediate timeframe than evolution. if we're going to survive its going to be with the adaptations we've got already.

      luckily altruism is one of them.

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