hummm

topic posted Thu, March 17, 2005 - 6:27 PM by 
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so what does it say about the people who would start or join a tribe called "Evolutionary Psycology" that there are ABSOLUTELY no posts??

Well, I'll start with a question: what sets evolutionary psychology apart from sociology? I'm just a layman, so humor me please...

Thanks, Paula
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  • Unsu...
     

    Re: hummm

    Thu, March 17, 2005 - 8:24 PM
    Evolutionary psych is psychology, not sociology. It tries to explain individual human behavior by determining how certian behavior patterns were adaptive in the human evolutionary environment.

    There's some more at www.sfu.ca/~janicki/defn.htm .
    • Re: hummm

      Sat, April 16, 2005 - 2:57 AM
      a wrinkle in the distinction though is that the social milieu is a part of the environment...

      a lotta distinctions in human sciences are more vestigial or political than scientifically justifiable...more an index of institutional constraints than anything else...
  • Re: hummm

    Sat, April 16, 2005 - 10:02 AM
    Sociology is the study of the social world, and the behaviour of humans in a variety of situations. Several aspects of human behaviour are studied within the context of political transformation and globalisation, creating an understanding of society in a changing world. Sociologists study race and ethnicity, social stratification, social mobility, policy processes, education, poverty, organisations and bureaucracies, crime and social problems, family and religion; amongst a range of other social processes.

    -The key word being social in sociology-

    In the final pages of the Origin of Species, after he had presented the theory of evolution by natural selection, Darwin made a bold prediction: "In the distant future I see open fields for far more important researches. Psychology will be based on a new foundation, that of the necessary acquirement of each mental power and capacity by gradation."
    Evolutionary psychology is the approach of explaining human behavior based on the combination of evolutionary biology, anthropology, cognitive science, and the neurosciences.
    according to evolutionary psychology, neural tissue is no different from any other tissue: it is functionally organized to serve survival and reproduction. This is the foundational assumption of evolutionary psychology.
    Evolutionary psychology focuses on the evolved properties of nervous systems, especially those of humans. Because virtually all tissue in living organisms is functionally organized, and because this organization is the product of evolution by natural selection, a major presumption of evolutionary psychology is that the brain, too, is functionally organized, and best understood in evolutionary perspective.

    I don't know if that is layman enough, but it basically comes down to the study of how our brain function and behavior is influenced by evolution through our biology.
    I personally tend to be very interested in how genetics and evolution effect our procreation and sexual behavior.

    hope this helps and I am glad you started some talk.
    • Re: hummm

      Sun, April 24, 2005 - 9:27 AM
      OK, you guys rock.

      "a wrinkle in the distinction though is that the social milieu is a part of the environment... "

      Exactly, While I can see that you can study different aspects of evolution; psycology or sociology, physical ect., the psycology and sociology seem bound together. Isn't it true that the more social an amimal is the larger it's brain? That would make me think that the social environment even has an effect on those tissues. Or am I confusing cause and effect? I suppose that goes to the nature ~V~ nurture question, and no one wants to get into that again. :P

      Thanks for your conversation and keep it comming!

      Paula
      • Re: hummm

        Sun, April 24, 2005 - 9:32 AM
        They are indeed bound together in many ways. One cannot completely understand one without have some knowledge of the other.
    • Re: hummm

      Mon, May 16, 2005 - 9:02 AM
      Loved this post and am happy to participate in discussions with people thinking about these things! I am in agreement with Yuni that evolutionary psych centers a lot on neuroscience, but wanted to add a comment as well.

      Evolutionary psych I think also questions the way the evolutionary process itself has evolved; traits that influence survivability are carried outside of our bodies now in culture. An important way of understanding people is recognizing how our biological heritage interacts with this externalized reality. I think it's important not to simplify evolutionary psych as only relating to the adaptation of our nervous systems. Culture is a natural biological development which allows us to adapt without having to wait for genetic mutation or biological change, and this is a space that evolutionary psych starts to bridge.

      I think another discrepancy between sociology and evolutionary psych is that the center of discussion ordinarily remains an individual person's bahavior, whereas sociology always centers on group behavior. Let's face it though, these distinctions are a little fuzzy and often have more practical meaning than essential!
      • Re: hummm

        Mon, May 16, 2005 - 9:52 PM
        Well I agree that culture is a natural developement, but I'm not sure as to weather it is there to allow us to adapt without waiting for genetics or if our genetics have naturally brought about a need for culture. Being the believer in biological behavior that I am, I tend to believe that almost all cultural behavior can be traced back to basic biological needs.

        And while yes Sociology and evolutionary Psych are undeniably linked a key distinction is the emphasis that is placed on neurological function in evolutionary pyschology. Sociology often has a tendency to skip over physiology and biological function. It can be a challenge to address group behavior on that level.
        • Re: hummm

          Sun, June 19, 2005 - 12:31 PM
          This idea that all cultural expression is really traceable back to biology is a kind of reductionism that invalidates the substantiveness of culture. The convergence of our tool-making and symbol-making allow us to adapt to a wide range of climates, share ideas connected to survivability across time, and build extensions of our bodies: computers as extensions of our nervous systems and cognitive structures, medicines as extensions of our immune systems, etc.

          I think you are right that much variety in culture can be conceptually grouped together as, for example, women and men posturing to impress potential mates, etc., but reducing the variability and potential choices we have to these groupings does a major disservice to the complexity of these issues. The brain/mind, mind/body, nature/culture splits are increasingly vestigial ways of viewing ourselves in the world. Language can do violence in describing our experience, if we let it.
          • culture vs. biology? holism vs. reductionism?

            Mon, July 4, 2005 - 12:45 PM
            >> This idea that all cultural expression is really traceable back to biology is a kind of reductionism that invalidates the substantiveness of culture...
            I think you are right that much variety in culture can be conceptually grouped together as, for example, women and men posturing to impress potential mates, etc., but reducing the variability and potential choices we have to these groupings does a major disservice to the complexity of these issues.<<

            Word. We need to be humble in our reductionism. Saying one level of system derives from another level of the system doesn't necessarily mean much in terms of meaningful theory or understanding.

            A metaphor i like to use here comes from computing. The web-browsers and other software all of us are using right now are--at most basic computational level--just a series of voltage differences symbolized by 0s and 1s. So are all the images and texts we are seeing right now.

            Does this reduction to the fundamental machine-code level help us understand and analyze the differences between, say, a painting program and a word-processing program?

            Not really.

            We still need higher-level concepts and language to theorize about the higher levels of a system. In most cases reducing it doesn't really give us much.

            Seems one of the attractions of reductionism--and what leads to more hubristic rather than humble takes on it--is the sense that things are more definite and less fuzzy at the more primitive/fundamental levels of the system. Instead of trying to understand a billion complex beings and social arrangements, why not simply understand a few dozen amino acids?

            As an aside, one advantage of systems thinking in approaching higher level phenomena is the smoothing out of random variations--i.e. extremes on either side of the average cancel each other out.

            In this sense group behavior can be much easier to theorize and discuss than individual behavior.
            • Unsu...
               
              But sometimes it is apporpriate and helpful to understand the dependency of the higher-level system on the lower-level system. For example, if the web-browser doesn't work on certain computers it may be that the original progammer used a function that needed a machine code instruction which a certain processor didn't have. So if one needed to figure out why it was compiling on this computer, one would never figure it out unless they understood the dependency of the higher-level system on the lower level system.

              It doesn't do any good to deny that geology is just a convenient set of rules of thumb to describe ultimately physical phenemenon. The same goes for psychology. One day, a problem might come up where it might be useful to understand the dependency of psychology on phsics. It's just that we don't understand the system deeply enough to have come across any such questions. (Although geology has.)
              • Unsu...
                 
                Errata:

                So if one needed to figure out why it *was* compiling on this computer,

                should read:

                So if one needed to figure out why it *was not* compiling on this computer,
                • I'm a phenomenologist at heart, so for me we begin with experience. We start with lived experience, and we note how we perceive and make sense and measure our experience, carefully recognizing what each interaction does. Culture is not experienced as a kind of compiled, higher-level "nature" for me where we could discern a one-to-one map back to instinctive roots.

                  No matter how far we get in the future, the idea that culture is REALLY just an epiphenomenon of nature is a philosophically flawed one. This idea, that everything can be made sense of in terms of its smaller, more basic component parts, is an aspect of the alienation in physics that is just now beginning to be overturned. Someday science will catch up with the philosophers and intelligent mystics and recognize the interwoven relationship between perceiver and perceived, and see models as models instead of what they are modelling.
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    right on...

                    i'm wondering about the tension here between these paradigms...where it comes from...not historically so much as structurally or psychologically...

                    hmm...makes me think about the Myers-Briggs typology...the T's vs. the F's...reasons vs. relationships...

                    also makes me think of cognition and instinctive ways of knowing we all inherit...both 1) the mechanical/physical ways that are all about being a body with a certain kind of design in a certain kind of gravitational field and a certain kind of landscape--instincts around movement and perception and space, and 2) the interpersonal ways that are all about being social animals whose survival and thriving has depended on collective problem-solving and sophisticated relationship-building and the transmission of accumulated wisdom of culture...and arguably language as a kind of symbolic boot-strapping tool...

                    to flip around my earlier ciriticisms of hubristic reductionism: reductionism doesn't necessariily have to be about control or domination or hubris...it can also stem from a kind of profound humility: whereas the mystic or theologian might claim to know the universe via the "I..Thou" relationship--be it a personal relationship to the ground of being or what have you--the reductive analyst might say "I cannot pretend to know the universe using my most familiar(/ial) concepts...i will adhere to formalisms in order to seal my subjective biases out of the equation"

                    the game can be played both ways: seems to me neither pole is superior to the other...both holism and reductionism, both analysis and creation, both reason and emotion, both the familiar and the alien are necessary conversants in the ongoing dialogue called understanding.

                    yikes...i thought i had something cool to say but i'm afraid i've been rambling a bit =0
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    So what your saying is that culture could in fact exist without some substrate, say in this case matter?

                    It's possible...but how come everytime we take the matter away the culuture, or whatever epiphenemenon your talking about, dissapears? Or if we alter the matter, except in certain equivalent, or symetrical, forms (e.g. exchanging one kind of atom for the same kind of atom) the epiphenemenon changes?

                    It seems that your denying the most obvious thing you can choose to deny just to be contrarian.

                    And scientists aren't catching up with ancient mystics, people are simply reinterpreting the vague writings of mystics to correspond with what science is saying. There are some things that philosophers here and there have mentioned, but that's just because there was so much philosophy being written in the 1000 years leading up to the scientific era someone was bound to get something right--like the one out of a billion monkeys banging on keyboards who writes one sensible paragraph.
                    • i appreciate your engaging with my post, though you don't appear to afford it much respect or sincere consideration.

                      of course i have never claimed that culture can exist without matter. i believe what you are stating here is that since culture cannot exist without matter (the term you replace my term "nature" with), then culture must be composed and reducible to matter/nature. is that right? it is difficult to respond specifically to your post, since you have not actually engaged with much of what i originally wrote, but rather an oversimplified version of it that was easy to deny.

                      what i wrote included the following claims:

                      1) using a phenomenological method (you might refer specifically to Merleau-Ponty's Phenomenology of Perception, one of the lucky monkeys who banged out a sensible paragraph or two), our direct experience contains cultural elements whose variety and breadth cannot be mapped one-to-one back to "nature"; e.g. this cultural experience of dance and its particular textural dimensions and practices are REALLY just me wanting to procreate and the other aspects of it are completely unreal. I was pointing out that we need to "note how we perceive and make sense and measure our experience, carefully recognizing what each interaction does."

                      2) "This idea that everything can be made sense of in terms of its smaller, more basic component parts, is an aspect of the alienation in physics that is just now beginning to be overturned." What I am referring to here is the questioning of the atomic model represented by string theory and the modern questioning of reality being reducible to small, cueball particles seen in our models. Heisenberg's principle is also much more suggestive than it first appears as well.

                      The philosophers I was thinking of included Merleau-Ponty, Heidegger, and the mystics included Lao Tzu and the Buddha. All had very sophisticated epistemological theories that present lived reality as more of a result of a relationship between perceiver and perceived than many think, a notion quantum physics (of the vigorous variety, not the piece of shit film "What the Bleep Do We Know?" variety) is beginning to come to.

                      I hope you're still interested in responding. I appreciate talking with people about these topics a lot!
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
                    Unsu...
                     
                    The day I see some epiphenenon without some configuration of matter and energy, is the day I'll believe that.

                    That or a coherent argument.

                    And the thing about scientists catching up with philosophers. That usually is only said by people who have read nothing but pop-science written by non-scientists who say that. I don't mean to be rude, it's just true in my experience.
                    • let's try to avoid ad hominem statements. they won't further our discussion. wait until you have concrete evidence that all i've read is pop science, and then critique, like a good scientist should!
                      • Unsu...
                         

                        EP

                        Sat, November 18, 2006 - 2:21 AM
                        hi, I am a newbie here...a few years ago I took a psych course taught by Alice Andrews who talked mostly about E.P. & DAMN it changed my life!

                        this is simplistic....and doesn't sum it up entirely, but does come to mind....the song sung by Janis Ian

                        At Seventeen
                        Dht

                        I learned the truth at seventeen
                        That love was meant for beauty queens
                        And high school girls with clear skinned smiles
                        Who married young and then retired
                        The valentines I never knew
                        The Friday night charades of youth
                        Were spent on one more beautiful
                        At seventeen I learned the truth
                        And those of us with ravaged faces
                        Lacking in the social graces
                        Desperately remained at home
                        Inventing lovers on the phone
                        Who called to say - come dance with me
                        And murmured vague obscenities
                        It isn't all it seems at seventeen
                        A brown eyed girl in hand me downs
                        The rich relationed hometown queen
                        Marries into what she needs
                        With a guarantee of company
                        And haven for the elderly
                        Remember those who win the game
                        Lose the love they sought to gain
                        In debentures of quality and dubious integrity
                        Their small town eyes will gape at you
                        In dull surprise when payment due
                        Exceeds accounts received at seventeen
                        To those of us who knew the pain
                        Of valentines that never came
                        And those whose names were never called
                        When choosing sides for basketball
                        It was long ago and far away
                        The world was younger than today
                        When dreams were all they gave for free
                        To ugly duckling girls like me
                        We all play the game, and when we dare
                        To cheat ourselves at solitaire
                        Inventing lovers on the phone
                        Repenting other lives unknown
                        Who call and say - come dance with me
                        And murmur vague obsceneties
                        To ugly girls like me, at seventeen

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