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since we got so off-topic on the other sexual orientation thread i thought i'd start another one. i just ran across this fun little blog post about the possible genetic causes of male homosexuality.
dearscience.org/2008/06/25...re-gay-men/
there's also the podcast which is a bit more detailed.
podcasts.thestranger.com/dear_science/
he talks about that paper you mentioned blue-j, the one that statistically supported the sexually antagonistic selection explanation.
dearscience.org/2008/06/25...re-gay-men/
there's also the podcast which is a bit more detailed.
podcasts.thestranger.com/dear_science/
he talks about that paper you mentioned blue-j, the one that statistically supported the sexually antagonistic selection explanation.
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sun, July 6, 2008 - 4:53 PMof course that's only for male homosexuality.
lisa diamond is the current reigning goddess of female sexual orientation so here's a paper by her on the topic to fill in that side of things.
www.psych.utah.edu/people/f...types.pdf -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 7:18 PMthanks for these resources. i'll check them out.
may i invite the conversation to become a little more personal, albeit as hypothetical as you'd like?
do you think you could change your sexual orientation? anyone? do you think you could "give it a go," whichever way is other than what you identify with?
we model our world. we model ourselves. we develop hypothetical scenarios in our minds. this in turn can direct our behavior -- to a degree, and not without counter-forces (anyone who diets knows the deal there!). it doesn't matter whether a choice is determined or "free" (whatever that means). all that matters is whether you believe you could become sexual counter to your normal identification. if you're bi, then i suppose that's impossible to a degree.
i'm not asking anyone to announce their orientation if they don't want to, just the general question, so we can get at the phenomenology of choice-making around an issue where the notion of biological determinism is central.
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Tue, July 8, 2008 - 8:37 PMwell "you could become sexual" is a pretty broad criteria. in the lisa diamond paper she talks about the distinction between proceptivity (goal seeking context-independent sexual arousal) and arousability (context specific sexual arousal in response to stimuli). she hypothesizes that in women proceptivity is present but relatively weak and that they have a fairly versatile and strong capacity for arousability. this would account for what is coming to be overwhelming data that women's sexuality works in a fundamentally more changable and context-specific way (i.e. "loving the person not the gender"). so i would guess that many if not most women would say yes to your question.
in men it seems that proceptivity is much stronger, but that isn't to say that we don't also have an arousability component to our sexuality that may be more or less strong with normal genetic variation. situational homosexuality certainly exists, though some evolutionary hypotheses explain that in more specific terms (i.e. frank muscarella and alliance theory). in personal terms, i don't think that my long-term pattern of male object orientation will ever change no. does that mean that i could never "become sexual" with a woman? no not really. i'm not particularly motivated to do it but i imagine i could become aroused through the physical contact etc. as it happens i never have (i came out when i was 13), but of course many men with exclusive male object orientations have sex with women in their adolescence or into their adulthood, certainly they've done so historically and continue to do so in societies where it's impossible not to get married in order to function socially. also, if you think about how easy it is to get a 16 year old boy hard i think it's pretty clear what arousability is in males.
but no, from my own experience of very strong, very early onset, totally exclusive object orientation toward men i think it probable that there exists an evolved psychological phenomena that roughly corresponds to our folk concept of sexual orientation, though certainly it doesn't exactly correspond.
i like that you mentioned the hypothetical scenarios issue because i think that's a big open question and very interesting in terms of the complications of what exactly bisexuality is and how exactly the phenotypical expression of sexual orientation plays out, how much variablity and malleability there is, how fetishes and associations work out, how it all relates to the more general variation of erotic preferences (for example why some gay men like big hairy muscle daddies and some like barely 18 hairless twinks). the classical developmental tradition of explanation for this kind of thing has been ignored since we cast off the yoke of freudianism and i think that we're probably missing a lot of detail because of that, not that i think we should return to freudian speculation.
one hypothetical scenario that i've thought of (though i'm more confused about this than i was since male bisexuality has been questioned by some recent data) is say you have a guy who could potentially be a kinsey 2 or so genetically, a bisexual male with an overwhelming object-orientation to women and a marginal object-orientation to men. say that he grows up in such a virulently homophobic environment that the repression of his attraction to men is almost total. say that his psychic distress at these feelings is so strong that he's unable to have an erection, unable think about it, fantasize about it at all, much less act on it. and of course all the while he acts on his overwhelming attraction toward women and develops into a normative "heterosexual." of course this implies a gods-eye view knowledge of his hypothetical genetic predisposition for male object-orientation, but as a thought experiment is that a potential scenario for a developmental role in the phenotypical expression of sexual orientation? assuming that genetic evolved object-orientation, if he can't function sexually, doesn't allow himself to have any homosexual ideation, and his erotic vocabulary, his repertoire of fantasy, what he masturbates to, and of course all of his sexual activity are female oriented, is he really "bisexual?" is he really "heterosexual?" of course now we're straying into the realm of culturally constructed observer-dependent categories, how do you think that connects to this developmental question mr. women's studies masters student? ; ) -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 2:42 PMhere's an interesting, if someone plodding, lecture of the biology of sexual orientation, and particularly the neurohormonal model.
video.google.com/videoplay
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 9:54 PM"though i'm more confused about this than i was since male bisexuality has been questioned by some recent data)"
that research was a pile of shit. i think there's another thread in this tribe about it, if you wanna do a search. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 10:23 PMwell, i've read the study and it certainly doesn't imply that male bisexuality doesn't exist. it should be considered way more tentatively than that. but i still think it's interesting, suggestive data. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:50 AMi don't want to repeat the critiques, i hope you find the thread and check it out. i would value your opinion on the matter. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 11:31 AMi can't find it. can you link it? -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 1:57 PMit's in the other orientation thread, wayyyyy down!
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:29 PMheh, presumably you identify as bisexual blue-j?
that thread is a mess, and you're exchange with whats his name was not productive, so i'm going to post your response here and go from there...
how about believing what people say about themselves and not the results of a 100-person survey (with 35% rejected by the researchers as non-responders) some questionably objective texan did wearing a lab coat? do you believe anything a guy with a degree tells you? cause i have a couple, and i can tell you that this study was not well done and is inconclusive.
www.biresource.org/
penile plethysmography doesn't cut in in court and has been criticized left and right for a long time:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peni...hysmograph
"In State of North Carolina v. Spencer[2], the court reviewed the literature and case law and concluded that penile plethysmography was scientifically unreliable: "Despite the sophistication of the current equipment technology, a question remains whether the information emitted is a valid and reliable means of assessing sexual preference."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Michael_Bailey
"In December 2006, [Dr. Bailey] controversially suggested that aborting a fetus after fetal screening for sexual orientation is "morally acceptable...."
"Bailey once again stirred controversy in 2005 as senior author of a study which claimed male bisexuality does not exist, based on results of controversial penile plethysmograph testing.[24] The testing found that of men who identified as bisexual, 75% were only aroused genitally by homosexual imagery, and 25% were only aroused genitally by heterosexual imagery. They concluded that bisexuality was a subjective experience: "Male bisexuality appears primarily to represent a style of interpreting or reporting sexual arousal rather than a distinct pattern of genital sexual arousal."
The study received wide attention after a New York Times piece on the study that coincided with the opening of the 2005 International Academy of Sex Research convention.[25] The article and study were criticized by LBGT groups[26] and by FAIR.[27] Critics argued the sample size was relatively small, consisting of only one hundred (100) men. Also, all of these subjects were "self-selected", from ads placed in LGBT and "alternative" publications. Then the researchers had to disregard results of thirty-five percent (35%) of this population, as non-responders.[24]"
and for one thing, who's to say what characters the viewer was identifying with in the porn? -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 2:58 PManyways... hmmm... like i said i'm confused about it. i mean obviously an affective experience we refer to culturally as "bisexuality" exists. it's interesting data, and the data for the women actually fits in very well with lisa diamonds theory about female sexual fluidity. of course we need a larger reproduction of the study to explore the puzzling results with the men, but i doubt that it's totally bunk data.
also in that thread it wasn't really talked out exactly what the results were. basically it showed that for the most part men responded either to male-male porn or to porn involving women, including lesbian porn, so i don't think that your identification criticism really applies. i also don't think that the self-selected criticism applies, i don't see why there would be a self-selection bias for this particular issue, and when dealing with sexual minorities you almost always have a self-selected sample because you have to deal with self-reported sexual identity. a truly random sample of statistical significance for this kind of minority population is massively expensive.
j. michael bailey is an asshole but he is not a quack. he's not a homophobe either, as your abortion quote suggests. my impression is that he thinks that a parent should be able to abort for any reason. certainly if a women can decide to abort because she doesn't want to have a baby at all she should be able to abort because she doesn't want to have a gay baby. he has done a lot of very important research and is very widely cited. and this kind of work is important, it should be replicated with a larger sample. he tends toward the dramatic in his conclusions and his presentation of his ideas. he was crucified for the man who would be queen primarily because of his delivery of his theories. he apparently delights in making theoretically reasonable hypotheses that might be uncomfortable to many people in an insensitive and unqualified way that pushes peoples buttons and incited unproductive controversy.
as for the plethysmograph thing, i think it's a fairly reasonable to assert that it's a measure of arousal, particularly in men, though it cetainly doesn't define "arousal." one of the more interesting results of this very study was with women, in the other thread it was mentioned offhand that "women bisexuals did in fact respond to both kind of porn," and that's not exactly right. in fact the distribution of what women responded to, both from self-reports and from the plethysmograph, was almost totally random, not associated at all with any one category or their stated sexual orientation. heterosexual women were just as likely to respond to lesbian porn as lesbians or bisexuals and vice versa. in addition, their stated arousal did not correspond to their physical arousal as recorded by the plethysmograph. this makes sense in terms of what we're coming to understand about the context specificity of female sexuality. i should hardly think that bailey et al. are contending an uncritical one-to-one correspondence between plethysmograph reading and "arousal."
what exactly bisexuality is and how it interacts with exclusive orientations is a big open question. you're quite right to say that self-reports can't be denied, that's also data, and much stronger data than this. but self-reports are not the whole story. my suspicion is that our sort of commons sense model of what bisexuality as a relatively straightforward dual object orientation of variable intensity will not be the whole story, and i think that this kind of data is suggestive of that. of course i say that as someone with an exclusive object orientation so perhaps i'm more credulous of it than i should be.
are you bisexual? what was your developmental experience of bisexuality? who do you think about when you masturbate? what do you think about the distinction between arousability and proceptivity in relation to your experiences of desire as you developed and now? -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:16 PMby the way, i am not strongly defending bailey. i think that we agree, it's inconclusive.
here's the paper if anyone is interested...
Although bisexual behavior is not uncommon in men, there has
long been skepticismthat it is motivated by strong sexual arousal
and attraction to both sexes. For example, the case studies of
Krafft-Ebing (1886) suggest that most men with bisexual activity
have sex with women because of social pressure but have sexual
attraction exclusively or almost exclusively to men (Cases 127,
128, 135–153, and 167). Hirschfeld (1914/2001, pp. 197–215)
speculated that most self-identified bisexual men are either
heterosexual or homosexual and that men with substantial bisexual
attractions are rare. Freund, who was a pioneer in measuring
male genital arousal, wrote that, after assessing genital
arousal in hundreds of men, he never found convincing evidence
that bisexual arousal patterns exist (1974, p. 39).The existence of
male bisexual attraction and arousal remains controversial and
poorly understood (Fox, 2000; MacDonald, 2000; Zinik, 2000).
BISEXUALITY: BEHAVIOR, IDENTITY, AND AROUSAL
Sexual orientation refers to the degree of sexual attraction, fantasy,
and arousal that one experiences for members of the opposite
sex, the same sex, or both. Men’s self-reported sexual
orientation tends to be bimodal, with the large majority reporting
exclusive sexual attraction to women and a minority reporting
exclusive or near-exclusive attraction to men; the number of men
who report substantial sexual attraction to both men and women
is even smaller (Bailey, Dunne,&Martin, 2000; Diamond, 1993;
Laumann, Gagnon, Michael, & Michaels, 1994).
Patterns of sexual behavior (i.e., sexual contact with men or
women) are certainly influenced by sexual orientation, but may
diverge from it for various reasons, including limitations in opportunity
(e.g., imprisoned men without access to women), stigmatization
(typically against homosexuality), or material reasons,
as in the case of prostitution (Gagnon, Greenblat, & Kimmel,
1999). Unquestionably, during the course of their lives, some
men have sex with both men and women. One survey of homosexual
men found that about 69% had also been sexually active
with women (Bell, Weinberg, & Hammersmith, 1981). Furthermore,
some imprisoned men say that they are heterosexual even
though they engage in homosexual sex (Kirkham, 2000). Given
these discrepancies between reported sexual orientation and
sexual behavior in some men, it is reasonable to ask whether
male bisexual behavior reflects sexual arousal to both sexes.
Sexual identity refers to labels, including ‘‘homosexual,’’
‘‘heterosexual,’’ or ‘‘bisexual,’’ that individuals often give themselves
(Sell, 1997). In a national survey, 0.8% of American men
identified as bisexual (Laumann et al., 1994). There may be
varied reasons why some men adopt a bisexual identity. For example,
they may have intense sexual attraction to both men and
women, or they might have sex partners of both sexes. Furthermore,
men who adopt a homosexual identity might go through a
stage in which they consider themselves bisexual. In one study,
up to 40% of homosexual men defined themselves as bisexual
before adopting a gay identity (Lever, 1994). In another study,
most bisexual men shifted over time toward homosexuality;
however, a small number shifted toward heterosexuality (Stokes,
Damon, & McKirnan, 1997). This suggests that some bisexually
identified men might have homosexual feelings (i.e., substantial
attraction and arousal only to men), whereas others might have
heterosexual feelings (i.e., substantial attraction and arousal
only to women).
In terms of behavior and identity, bisexual men clearly exist.
Skepticism about male bisexualitymust therefore concern claims
about bisexual feelings, that is, strong sexual attraction and
arousal to both sexes. The primary methodological challenge for
investigating this issue is to employ a measure of sexual feelings
that does not depend on self-report. At present, this is possible
only for genital sexual arousal.
MEASURING MALE SEXUAL AROUSAL
Male genital arousal can be measured using a circumferential
strain gauge that reflects the changes in penile girth during
erection (Janssen, 2002). Homosexual men show substantially
more genital arousal to sexual stimuli depicting men(male sexual
stimuli) than to those depicting women (female sexual stimuli);
heterosexual men have the opposite pattern (Chivers, Rieger,
Latty, & Bailey, 2004; Freund, 1963; Freund,Watson, & Rienzo,
1989; Sakheim,Barlow, Beck,&Abrahamson, 1985). Subjective
sexual arousal is measured by self-report and is typically highly
correlated with genital arousal in men (Sakheim et al., 1985).
However, when self-report is suspect, genital arousal may
provide a more valid measure. For example, genital arousal
to stimuli depicting children is an effective method of assessing
pedophilia, even among men who deny attraction to children
(Blanchard, Klassen, Dickey, Kuban, & Blak, 2001).
Few studies have investigated genital arousal among bisexual
men. One study (McConaghy & Blaszczynski, 1991) measured
genital sexual arousal to slides of nude men and women in 20men
with problematic sexual preferences (e.g., pedophilia, exhibitionism,
bondage, and fetishism). The authors reported that the
bisexual-identified men among their sample showed bisexual
arousal. However, because of the heterogeneous study sample,
and because the authors did not use rigorous statistical analyses
to distinguish bisexual arousal from heterosexual or homosexual
arousal, the study does not definitively demonstrate that bisexual
men have bisexual arousal. Another study compared the genital
arousal to male and female stimuli of 10 heterosexual, 10 bisexual,
and 10 homosexual men (Tollison, Adams, & Tollison,
1979). Bisexual-identified men were indistinguishable from
homosexual-identified men in their patterns of genital arousal.
However, the group sizes in this study were relatively small, and
thus the study may have lacked power to detect differences between
the two groups.
THE CURRENT STUDY
We recruited self-identified heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual
men and assessed their genital and self-reported sexual
arousal to male and female sexual stimuli. Our analyses investigated
three hypotheses:
Bisexual men are substantially aroused by both male and female
stimuli.
Bisexual men, like homosexual men, are much more aroused by
male than by female stimuli.
Bisexual men show a mixture of homosexual and heterosexual
patterns of sexual arousal, with some having much more arousal to
male stimuli and others havingmuch more arousal to female stimuli.
Note that these hypotheses are not mutually exclusive.
METHOD
Participants
We advertised in gay-oriented magazines and an alternative
newspaper in Chicago for ‘‘heterosexual,’’ ‘‘bisexual,’’ and ‘‘gay’’
men for a paid study of sexual arousal. Men who called the lab
were asked about their sexual attraction toward men and women,
so that their sexual orientation could be determined (see Measures
and Procedure). Participants included 30 heterosexual
men, 33 bisexual men, and 38 homosexual men, categorized on
the basis of their answers to those questions. We also asked
men to describe their sexual identity as straight, bisexual, or
gay. Sexual attraction and sexual identity (converted to a numeric
3-point scale) were highly correlated, r 5 .95. Mean ages
(standard deviations in parentheses) were 31.6 (5.9), 31.2 (5.4),
and 30.6 (5.8), for the heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual
men, respectively. The percentage of Caucasian participants was
49.3, and this percentagedidnot vary significantly across groups.
The heterosexual and homosexual participants were included in
an earlier study (Chivers et al., 2004).
Measures and Procedure
The measures and procedure of this study were identical to those
of our earlier study (Chivers et al., 2004), and the report of that
study provides more detail.
Sexual Orientation
Sexual orientation was assessed via self-report using the Kinsey
Sexual Attraction Scale (Kinsey, Pomeroy, & Martin, 1948).
Participants provided separate Kinsey ratings for their sexual
orientation during the past year and during adulthood. The mean
of these two ratings was used in all analyses. ‘‘Heterosexual
men’’ were defined as men with Kinsey Attraction scores less
than or equal to 1, ‘‘bisexual men’’ had Kinsey Attraction scores
greater than 1 and less than 5, and ‘‘homosexualmen’’ had Kinsey
scores greater than or equal to 5.
Stimuli
Participants viewed an 11-min, neutral, relaxing film (e.g.,
landscapes), followed by several 2-min sexual films, and another
neutral film. Two of the sexual films depicted two men having sex
with each other, and two of the films depicted two women having
sex with each other.
Sexual Arousal
Genital arousal was assessed using a penile mercury-in-rubber
gauge measuring circumference changes during erection (Janssen,
2002). Participants indicated subjective arousal by moving
a lever forward to indicate increasing arousal and backward
to indicate decreasing arousal.
Data Analyses
Because not all men become sufficiently sexually aroused for
valid assessment, it is important to exclude nonresponders (Seto
et al., 2001).We excluded participants whose genital response to
any sexual stimuli was less than a 2-mm increase in penile circumference
and whose subjective response was less than 5%,
compared with response to neutral stimuli. The final sample
contained 21 heterosexual, 22 bisexual, and 25 homosexual men
with sufficient genital arousal for analyses and 24 heterosexual,
24 bisexual, and 31 homosexual men with sufficient subjective
arousal.
For each combination of participant and filmclip, we computed
meangenital andsubjective arousal.Next, for eachparticipant,we
standardized genital and subjective arousal across film clips. Finally,
we averaged the standardized genital arousal across female
sexual stimuli in order to compute mean genital arousal to female
stimuli; analogous calculations yielded mean genital arousal to
male sexual stimuli and to the neutral stimulus, and mean subjective
arousal to female and to male sexual stimuli, and to the
neutral stimulus. Whenever arousal to sexual stimuli was used in
analyses, we first subtracted arousal to the neutral stimulus.
RESULTS
Our first analyses examined whether men who report bisexual
feelings have a bisexual arousal pattern. Men with strong bi
bisexual
arousal need not have precisely the same degree of arousal
to both male and female stimuli. However, on average, their
arousal to both male and female stimuli should be substantial.
Furthermore, their arousal to male stimuli should exceed that
of heterosexual men, and their arousal to female stimuli
should exceed that of homosexual men. The hypothesis that
bisexual men have bisexual arousal patterns thus implies
a negative quadratic relation between self-reported sexualattraction
score (Kinsey score) and sexual arousal to the less
arousing sex (Fig. 1a).
Figure 1b shows that the predicted curvilinear relation did not
occur for genital arousal. The quadratic model was nonsignificant,
p5.68, b5.05, DR25.00. In contrast, bisexual men’s
subjective arousal did show the predicted curvilinearity; the
negative quadratic relation was significant, p<.0001, b5.56,
DR25.29 (Fig. 1c). Thus, we found no indication of a distinctly
bisexual pattern of genital sexual arousal among bisexual men,
although they did report a distinctly bisexual pattern of subjective
sexual arousal.
Notably, on average all men, regardless of their sexual orientation,
showed significantly more genital arousal to their less
arousing sex than they did to neutral stimuli; the 95% confidence
interval for the curve in Figure 1b is above zero. However, the
figure also shows that arousal to the less arousing sex was markedly
lower than arousal to the more arousing sex.
Our next analyses examined whether bisexual men tend to
have homosexual arousal patterns, with greater arousal to male
than to female stimuli. We computed a male-female contrast by
subtracting each participant’s arousal to female stimuli from
his arousal to male stimuli; thus, higher scores indicate more
arousal to men. If most bisexual men are primarily aroused by
male stimuli, then there should be a negative quadratic relation
between the participants’ Kinsey scores and their arousal
difference scores (Fig. 2a).
With respect to genital arousal, the quadratic relation was
significant (Fig. 2b)1; bisexual men were more aroused by male
stimuli than by female stimuli, p<.01,b5.21,DR25.04. The
analogous quadratic relation for subjective arousal was also
significant (Fig. 2c), p<.01, b5.16,DR25.02; bisexual men
reported greater arousal to male than female stimuli.
Although these analyses suggest that bisexual men tend to
show more arousal to male than to female sexual stimuli, inspection
of Figure 2b suggests that not all do. Several men with
Kinsey Attraction scores in the bisexual range tended to show
most genital arousal to female sexual stimuli (i.e., their arousal
contrast scores were negative). To investigate the hypothesis that
bisexual men include a mixture of men with either homosexual or
heterosexual arousal patterns, we computed the absolute residuals
from the regressions shown in Figure 2. If this hypothesis is
correct, then the residuals should be largest within the bisexual
range of the Kinsey scale, and the relation between these residuals
and Kinsey scores should be negative quadratic (Fig. 3a).
This quadratic relation was significant for both genital arousal
(Fig. 3b), p < .05, b5 .25, DR25.04, and subjective arousal
(Fig. 3c), p < .01, b 5 .33, DR2 5 .10. These results suggest
that the bisexual men whose arousal patterns were least similar to
those of homosexual men tended to have arousal patterns similar
to those of heterosexual men.
DISCUSSION
Men who reported bisexual feelings did not show any evidence of a
distinctively bisexual pattern of genital arousal. One must be
cautious, of course, in drawing conclusions from negative results.
However, the crucial analysis of arousal to the less arousing sex
did not provide even a hint of the expected effect. On average,
to one sex than to the other, and this was equally true of bisexual
men.
To be sure, most men were more genitally aroused to stimuli
depicting their less arousing sex than to neutral stimuli. This
finding contradicts some prior research in which men’s arousal
to their less preferred sex was comparable to their response to
a neutral stimulus (Freund, 1974; Freund, Langevin, Cibiri, &
Zajac, 1973). This suggests that most men may possess a certain
capacity for bisexual arousal, although the magnitude of this
arousal is quite modest.
In contrast to bisexual men’s genital arousal, their subjective
arousal did show the expected pattern. The divergence between
results for genital and subjective arousal is intriguing,
because measures of genital and subjective arousal tend to be
highly correlated in men (Sakheim et al., 1985). For example,
across all our participants, the correlation between the genital
and subjective male-female contrasts was .85. These results
suggest that with respect to their less preferred sex, either bisexual
men’s subjective arousal has been exaggerated or their
genital arousal has been suppressed. An earlier study suggests
that the former explanation is more likely. In this study, bisexual
men, compared with heterosexual and homosexual men, had
greater discrepancies between their objectively measured and
subjectively estimated genital arousal, and this was primarily
due to an overestimation of their erections to female stimuli
(Tollison et al., 1979). This issue may be clarified by studies using
emerging technology identifying brain activation patterns associated
with sexual arousal (Barch et al., 2003; Hamann, Herman,
Nolan, & Wallen, 2004). In principle, such activation
patterns could have higher validity than penile erection or selfreported
arousal as a measure of sexual arousal. In any case, our
results suggest that male bisexuality is not simply the sum of, or
the intermediate between, heterosexual and homosexual orientation.
Indeed, with respect to sexual arousal and attraction, it
remains to be shown that male bisexuality exists. Thus, future
research should also explore nonsexual reasons why some men
might prefer a bisexual identity to a homosexual or heterosexual
identity.
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both homosexual and heterosexual men had much higher arousal -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:33 PMone possible explanation could be that for the most part men possess a single object orientation but have a greater or lesser capacity for arousability. if a male with a relatively weak object-orientation, or even a strong one, and a relatively large capacity for arousability this would fit the data, particularly if these participants object orientations were homosexual. situationally they would have far greater access and opportunity for sexual interaction with women than the mirror situation and so therefore would have more interactions where their arousability could be triggered in interaction with women, and would developmentally and psychologically come to think of themselves as bisexual. the opposite would be the adolescent situational homosexuality we see in males, or the situational homosexuality we see in prisons etc. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:40 PMnote that that is NOT the same thing as bisexuality as a crutch to assist coming out, though that phenomena clearly exists. arousability is no less "real" than proceptivity, it just functions differently. and how arousability interacts with things like habituation, association, fetishes, "erotic vocabulary," fantasy life, the eroticization of the forbidden, the eroticization of anxieties, and how all that feeds into long-term patterns of fantasy, desire, and sexual behavior is a wide open question. and of course how it all interacts with processes of identity formation, stories we tell about ourselves, how we think of ourselves in relation to our culture, discourses of indivualism and sexual identity, blah blah blah. heh. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 3:53 PMthis question of bisexuality is important by the way because it has implications for evolutionary explanations of the development of homosexuality and/or bisexuality. particularly alliance theory put forward by frank muscarella. certain kinds of evolutionary theories would seem to suggest very widespread bisexuality and leave exclusive object-orientations as either the extremes of genetic variation or a developmental and cultural artifact, on the other hand if exclusive object-orientation is the more common phenomena then it (at least it seems to me, though i defer to the people on here who know more about evolutionary theory than i do) demands an evolutionary explanation that addresses it more directly.
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 4:00 PMif we greatly expanded the sample i suspect that this is the picture you would find. it would be very interesting to find some self-identified bisexuals who had mostly heterosexual physiological responses. the proverbial hard-up frat boy. haha.
"one possible explanation could be that for the most part men possess a single object orientation but have a greater or lesser capacity for arousability. if a male with a relatively weak object-orientation, or even a strong one, and a relatively large capacity for arousability this would fit the data, particularly if these participants object orientations were homosexual. situationally they would have far greater access and opportunity for sexual interaction with women than the mirror situation and so therefore would have more interactions where their arousability could be triggered in int..."
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Thu, July 10, 2008 - 8:37 PMi find the number of possible confounds to be troubling here. i just don't know if i have it in me to give it another go though! i'll read it again and see what comes of it.
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 3:48 PM"heh, presumably you identify as bisexual blue-j? "
i think the best label for my sexuality is "feral." i love that word. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 7:02 PMhaha. sounds fun. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Fri, July 11, 2008 - 11:43 PMi seem to lean mostly toward female people sexually. that's just what seems to come easily to me, though i can be attracted to men sometimes, too. i don't think it's really a realm where ideals from the forebrain lead very well. things seem to work out better if i get my forebrain out of the fucking away or at least play a good robin to the libido's batman. maybe synchronize the systems is the best way to put it? i'd prefer to witness and enact desire rather than figure out ahead of time what i'm supposed to feel for some reason or other toward whomever. once i let go more of prescriptions, it actually allowed myself to notice that i am predominantly heterosexual, even though i have held a kind of "bisexual ideal" politically sometimes. my love for men is often affectionate, but it feels more like a deep camaraderie than particularly sexual. with ladies i am fairly ravenous, fixated, and hypnotized. however, the future is always in motion, and life is made of a sequence of phases. so, what does that make me? a quasipolysemipostbisynchroheterosexualist? -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 12:11 AMwho knows, from my experience one doesn't have to "figure out" a powerful directed object orientation though. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 12:55 AM"from my experience one doesn't have to "figure out" a powerful..."
maybe should read
"from my experience i didn't have to "figure out" a powerful..."
since clearly there are many who go through quite a circuitous path of exploration, experimentation, self-reflection, therapy, responding to social pressures and the like, as i had just mentioned occurs for me to a degree. i thought i noticed in a few of your earlier statements some signs of an essentialist attitude toward orientation, whereby it's a fixed entity that one discovers, rather than a process. is that the case? i don't think it's precisely like "i love carrots, and i've always known that i loved carrots, deep inside, i just love them absolutely. i didn't really need to try them to know, i just knew" for most people. or sometimes gay people just have sex with the other sex to prove such and such, as if the heterosexual experience had nothing to it for them whatsoever. that's very unlikely. i wonder if you might be more ready to point out to self-reporting straight men how their behavior belies an absolute orientation? at one time in my life, i was! i think what causes more trouble here is a usual suspect: representation simplifies, by definition. i'm not claiming that "everyone is bisexual" but that desire, sexual interest,and what counts as erotic are... slippery concepts, to a significant degree. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 12:30 PMwell right, i do have a bias toward an "essentialist" perspective because i've experienced a very strong uni-directional unambiguous object-orientation toward men my whole life. it started very strong, very early, in the total absence of any desire or fantasy toward women, and in a completely heterosexist and homophobic environment. my own personal experience gives me a large prior in favor of an innate object-orientation being part of the mix. i'm open to alternatives, at least i try to be, but it would take more evidence to convince me then it would to convince someone with a more ambiguous object orientation. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 3:56 PM"i do have a bias toward an "essentialist" perspective because i've experienced a very strong uni-directional unambiguous object-orientation"
"it would take more evidence to convince me then it would to convince someone with a more ambiguous object orientation."
this presents a logical fallacy. if you accept a multiplicity (please consider dropping "ambiguous" as your catch-all) in others, than the essentialist monosexual hypothesis has to shift equally in you as it would with someone different from you! we are talking about a perspective about all people, not oneself. you seem to shift here. i think there's a place at the table for everyone! -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 6:30 PMi don't follow you.
"if you accept a multiplicity (please consider dropping "ambiguous" as your catch-all) in others, than the essentialist monosexual hypothesis has to shift equally in you as it would with someone different from" -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sun, July 13, 2008 - 1:21 AMif we are talking about everyone, then your saying that you would take more to convince that people didn't have pure sexual orientations than others who have more "ambiguous" sexualities doesn't make logical sense, because your acknowledgment itself undermines a purist position. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 2:50 PMi'm sorry i don't think i was clear then. i'm just saying that it would take very strong evidence to convince me that everyone (including myself of course) starts out potentially bi or pan-sexual and through a developmental or socially constructed process comes to have an exclusive orientation because it seems to contradict my own experience. that is not the same thing as saying that i believe that everyone has a "pure" sexual orientation (which is i suppose the purist position you refer to? i'm not sure what you mean by "pure"). someone whose feelings of desire came upon them later than mine, or changed at some point in their life, or is experienced more around an individual connection to a person rather than a set of fantasies related to visual cues associated with a particular sex, i would imagine that such a person would be far more apt to find such a theory convincing. at this level of the game while everything is up in the air this kind of "gut feeling" reaction to hypotheses seems to me to be very powerful and something we should be aware of, but not necessarily a bad thing as long as we don't cut off possibilities and limit research along ideological lines.
"if we are talking about everyone, then your saying that you would take more to convince that people didn't have pure sexual orientations than others who have more "ambiguous" sexualities doesn't make logical sense, because your acknowledgment itself undermines a purist position. " -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 4:51 PM"everyone (including myself of course) starts out potentially bi or pan-sexual and through a developmental or socially constructed process comes to have an exclusive orientation"
i don't think this, nor have i said this. i was just pointing out that even in the very act of perception and gathering sensory data to inform desire we do not have a world of absolutes. all i have been doing was drawing a distinction between the phenomenology and the representation. i also have not questioned the final declaration a person makes about their sexual orientation, though i share with you a basic scientific incredulity toward the omniscience of conscious awareness.
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 12:41 PMbut i don't think that that's what i said. it fits into the phenomena of the phase bisexuals but i don't think it's the same. like i said, arousability isn't any less "real" than proceptivity. female fluid sexuality is no less "real" than strongly object-oriented male sexuality. basically what i'm suggesting is that male bisexuals function more similarly to females sexually, with a larger arousability component to their sexuality. at least that's what i'm suggesting that the bailey data suggests. you're right though, bailey's data is weak and a big claim, at this point it's just a suggestion, we'll have to wait for more data. we have so many suggestions at this point we're drowning in them.
though, as i've said earlier, many people certainly do "love carrots" without having to try them and any explanatory model has to include them. and really, i think my suggestion fits into the experience of many bisexual men. they seem to very rarely be a 50/50 kinsey 3, usually they seem to have one main object orientation that's clear to them and a more ambiguous (but no less "real") attraction to the other sex.
"whereby it's a fixed entity that one discovers, rather than a process. is that the case? i don't think it's precisely like "i love carrots, and i've always known that i loved carrots, deep inside, i just love them absolutely. i didn't really need to try them to know, i just knew" for most people. or sometimes gay people just have sex with the other sex to prove such and such, as if the heterosexual experience had nothing to it for them whatsoever. that's very unlikely" -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 4:21 PM"many people certainly do "love carrots" without having to try them and any explanatory model has to include them."
i'm not suggesting anything other than sexuality has a developmental process in life history and that identity is often more complicated than our words for it. this is not a sneak attack on your sexual identification. i would say the same exact thing to someone who identified as 100% heterosexual since childhood!
in evolutionary terms, it seems that sexuality has evolved a multiplicity of functions among Homos and that eroticism is a feature of the landscape often even in apparently utterly non-sexual situations. because of our self-modeling in part, we can reflect on sexual pleasure and seek it for its own gifts rather than to make babies. we can trump the replicative pressures of genes and memes in our lifetimes with conscious deliberation. contraception, homosexuality, swinging, BDSM, role playing, group sex, etc., are all in part the result of our phenotypic flexibility that arises from representation and its capacity to construct behavioral premises via language. if you view sex as just another behavioral trait rather than just the way to reproduce, a whole world of hypotheses arises for its function and evolution.
women and men are not different enough physically without a lot of cultural markers to preclude some fuzzy erotic responses. we're not penguins or other creatures who have hardly any dimorphism at all, but ours is quite low. mistaking a nice ass as being of another's sex and recalibrating to match one's identity is a likely slip-up, for example.
mirror neurons create a structure whereby we automatically - and without the ability to stop it - experience some of the same neurons firing as people we witness, and i would suggest that this occurs when viewing sexually charged material. we can't help but identify with all parties on some level, and attempts to disidentify with others often take an effort of psychological compartmentalization and oversimplifications of identity. i suggest that sensory input comes in and that responses are sometimes managed to a degree to accord with conscious identity, or, that such neurological responses are not supported by other response chains like the endocrinological and don't have enough excitation to form a high arousal index, such as penile growth in males. i doubt that in any living human being we would find zero excitation of any degree to any representation of any sex with anyone. that doesn't mean everyone's bisexual -- that would be absurd, demeaning to people, and stretching the term to the point of meaninglessness. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 4:23 PM"i doubt that in any living human being we would find zero excitation of any degree to any representation of any sex with anyone"
sorry, it's been brought to my attention in the past that there are people who are asexual who don't appear to have any interest in sex, and i do acknowledge them here. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 6:46 PMif it's possible to have zero sexual response to both sexes presumably its possible to have zero sexual response to one or the other.
"sorry, it's been brought to my attention in the past that there are people who are asexual who don't appear to have any interest in sex, and i do acknowledge them here." -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sun, July 13, 2008 - 1:23 AMnot necessarily. once the architecture of arousal were activated, it may not be totally discretely differentiated. but you raise a good question, and that's what counts as "sexual response"?
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sat, July 12, 2008 - 6:45 PMi don't see how this is inconsistent with an evolved object-orientation that may be stronger in some than in others.
"i'm not suggesting anything other than sexuality has a developmental process in life history and that identity is often more complicated than our words for it."
it didn't occur to me that it was, in fact you're the one who seems defensive.
this is not a sneak attack on your sexual identification. i would say the same exact thing to someone who identified as 100% heterosexual since childhood! "
this is an interesting point. it seems plausible to me that there would be some cross-over in visual cues for a woman and a young male for example, which seems to be the historic pattern.
"women and men are not different enough physically without a lot of cultural markers to preclude some fuzzy erotic responses. we're not penguins or other creatures who have hardly any dimorphism at all, but ours is quite low. mistaking a nice ass as being of another's sex and recalibrating to match one's identity is a likely slip-up, for example. "
an interesting, and testable, hypothesis. i wonder if you're right, personally i doubt it.
"i doubt that in any living human being we would find zero excitation of any degree to any representation of any sex with anyone."
nor does bailey suggest his participants are not bisexual.
"In terms of behavior and identity, bisexual men clearly exist.
Skepticism about male bisexuality must therefore concern claims
about bisexual feelings, that is, strong sexual attraction and
arousal to both sexes. The primary methodological challenge for
investigating this issue is to employ a measure of sexual feelings
that does not depend on self-report. At present, this is possible
only for genital sexual arousal. "
this skepticism seems to fit the data. even your own experiences seem to fit in well with it. it certainly fits the experience of most of the bisexuals i know.
"that doesn't mean everyone's bisexual -- that would be absurd, demeaning to people, and stretching the term to the point of meaninglessness."
i'm open to developmental explanations for my exclusive object-orientation, so far i haven't found any convincing, but i think i'm pretty open to it. as you say it hardly matters in terms of my ultimate identity, that's a moral, social, and political question. and the jury is in on the permanence of strongly felt object orientations, and that permanence is really the primary moral and political point in question. bisexuals should also be open to explanations of the processes that underly their sexuality, even if they might find it uncomfortable or disturbing. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Sun, July 13, 2008 - 1:40 AMwhat i try to advocate is a granular awareness of lived experience, noticing how our concepts and language may affect our focus, attempting round-trip feedback loops between our narratives and sensory and emotional experiences, remaining open to phenomenology. in computers, for example, there is a range of voltages that get resolved to a "1" or a "0" in the low-level electrical signaling. no one would argue that that "1" weren't real or didn't make sense to use as a designator, but was it "1"s all the way down? this is the difference between essentialism and naturalism. with essentialism, we presume a metaphysically pure almost platonic core of identity from which behavior or experience unfolds, whereas in my brand of naturalism, a range of varying signals constantly in motion resolves to particular behavior and experiences situationally.
sex and gender have multiple signaling organizational levels and are multidimensional, and these levels all interact in complex ways. dress, hair styles, tastes in entertainment and shopping -- a lot of human experience has taken on gendered meaning. we have a lot of different ways of making sense of these phenomena, some of them being extensions of likely ancestral traits, others not so much. humans are very flexible and also more possibly internally conflicted than other animals as well. we see in so-called "paraphilias" that people may eroticize a variety of objects, people, and activities in a manner unavailable to other animals. what counts as "erotic" for one person may be different for another, with of course areas of major overlap.
"it didn't occur to me that it was, in fact you're the one who seems defensive."
it felt like, with words like "ambiguous" and defense of bailey, that you weren't taking me at my word about my sexuality, and that irritated me. i also wanted you to know that nothing i'm saying is meant to question your sexual identity, out of respect for our living in a homophobic society. i was expressing respect for your self-identification. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 3:08 PMfrankly i think that the word "essentialism" has reached bugbear proportions and doesn't really refer to an actual position that actual researchers hold any more, if it ever did. i am certainly not advocating an "essentialist" position. i am hypothesizing an evolved mental module called proceptivity that takes in visual cues associated with biological sex and produces an affective experience of desire. i am hypothesizing that this experience-generating evolved aspect of our minds is more or less present in some than in others. i am hypothesizing another evolved mental module called arousability that is capable of taking in cues from a variety of other senses (touch, taste, smell, etc) in a more context specific way the creates generalized feelings of desire and erotic receptivity, and of course pleasure.
i agree that the cultural category of gender and the various culturally defined visual cues that tell us what "gender" a person is complicate the issue of evolved visual cues that would denote biological sex. i don't think that those are insurmountable complications though and i would be very surprised indeed if none existed.
i agree that paraphilias and the presumable mechanisms of association and habituation that they result from are an interesting part of the picture and could complicate things.
as for taking you at your word, i don't take anyone at their word about their sexuality, including myself. self-reports are never the whole story. they're important data but i always assume that the underlying functioning of such a complex biopsychosocial phenomena isn't 100% available to the conscious mind. it may be that the way that we have grown accustomed to thinking about things like bisexuality or homosexuality, and the political/social/moral structures we've built around that thinking, are simply mistaken, we just don't know yet. people may or may not be offended or disturbed by what we find out, and i agree with bailey that that shouldn't stop us from trying to understand. personally i view that as totally separate issue from respect for peoples identities, i have no idea what the complex developmental history is behind someones identity presentation, no clue what affective experiences went into them identifying that way, morally and politically i respect the right of anyone to identify however they wish. i don't think that it violates that respect to try to theorize about the underlying processes that go into that identification however. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 4:55 PMeverything you say here sounds reasonable; glad we're helping each other articulate so we understand each other's position, even as it evolves.
the only thing i disagree with you is your disregard for the essentialist critique. this is pretty standard fare, in biology and neuroscience, where the old élan vital or essential soul continue to find sidedoors in people's thinking. it's also a critical point in that in the world of representation, we find denotations have the appearance of being fixed platonically, whereas matter seems to generally configure along gradients and with nuances. thus the criticism of essentialism is essentially a caveat to the power of language. this is NOT the same as saying it's all in our heads, or all in our words. theorists who go that far need to get out of their ivory towers once in a while and stop defending their jobs! -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 7:13 PMi accept that as a metaphor, and probably also our evolved naive physics, the idea that an object or "thing" has some essential "itness" affects the way that we conceptualize these complex social phenomena. i'm talking about when an argument is characterized as "essentialist" in a more explicit sense. which i think could commonly be done in reference to arguments for evolved and innate sexual orientation. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Mon, July 14, 2008 - 9:24 PMi think a deep understanding of evolution supports non-essentialist conclusions, while still accepting traits and trends and perhaps even "natures" to a degree -- though that's dangerously close to essence. sure there are traits that can't vary much and still result in a viable being, but aside from that, we see distributions wherever we go, not absolutes. evolution itself does not result in fixed entities, but rather ongoing feedback loops, replete with mutations, drift, frequency dependencies, variations from sex, epigenetic effects, developmental paths, stress responses, endocrinological environmental responses, etc. i'm not saying there's nothing innate of course. one could easily misunderstand me as being a social constructionist if one read my words too quickly!
but let's face it: our forebrains like shorthand. we simplify and model all the fucking time. shit, 10,000,000,000 bits per second come in, and only 20-50 bits per second can be conscious at a time. there are the limits of short-term memory, consolidation, etc. we are constantly doing violence to the phenomenology of experience via our conceptual shortcuts... though i wouldn't do without 'em!! good tools to have!! -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 10:37 AMi don't really know what you mean when you say essentialist or absolute. the brain "absolutely" has an "essential" component to it that produces natural language for example. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 12:54 PMessentialism has to do with reifying an abstracted description of something and then giving it causal power in its own right, rather than using language as a tool to describe trends among nuanced and multidimensional phenomena.
"the brain "absolutely" has an "essential" component to it that produces natural language for example."
"the brain"? which brain? and what if we find a brain that doesn't produce language? sure, there are things you can say about all brains that make them brains, but there are two caveats: 1) many of the shared features will exist along a continuum not captured by many signifiers; and 2) even with the best models we are still making abstractions (usually simplifications) of what we're modeling, by definition. brains exist. they have shared traits, shared phylogenetic histories, shared DNA instructions and developmental paths. but each instance of a brain is an instance, unique, and calling them all brains only does so much work for certain conversations.
an essence is literally taken to have a reality of its own. and the essence is confused to have explanatory and causal power in and of itself. that is, your gayness is an essence that transcends all the details of your desire and specific situational instantiations and enactments, in fact it is the cause of your behavior. you behave a certain way because you are gay. you have a gay essence. the alternative goes the other direction and looks at the complex, multifeatured, detailed data of your behavior and senses and thoughts and experiences and concludes that "gay" is a good shorthand for all of it.
discourse comes late to the party sometimes. how we conceptualize or categorize experience is more often than many people want to admit a post hoc storytelling exercise put on by your left hemisphere language centers to maintain a consistent narrative of behavior, personal responsibility, and the like. it's its JOB. it's job is to simplify the vast array of sensory information coming in, the cast sometimes parallel and conflicted signals of motivation, and to tell a simple story. it's a filter against overwhelming information. consciousness itself evolved as an expression of this priority algorithm. we are conscious of what matters most immediately -- at least that's what it mainly evolved to do.
so, i think with this in mind, we have to look carefully and with some measure of respectful incredulity not only at our self-reports, but at the simplifying nature of representation itself. if we limit mediation as much as practically possible, there is an energetic price to pay, but i think it's worth it. -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 12:57 PM"the cast sometimes"
i can't for the life of me figure out what i was trying to type here. sorry!
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 2:21 PMand who or what is espousing the first view exactly?
"your gayness is an essence that transcends all the details of your desire and specific situational instantiations and enactments, in fact it is the cause of your behavior. you behave a certain way because you are gay. you have a gay essence. the alternative goes the other direction and looks at the complex, multifeatured, detailed data of your behavior and senses and thoughts and experiences and concludes that "gay" is a good shorthand for all of it. " -
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Tue, July 15, 2008 - 4:22 PMthat's essentialism in its pure form. you asked me to define it, not who did it. i said some of your speech veered that way, not that it was your position entirely. -
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podcast about the biology of sexual orientation
Sat, August 9, 2008 - 5:40 PM -
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Re: podcast about the biology of sexual orientation
Mon, August 11, 2008 - 10:54 AMoh cool thanks!
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Wed, July 9, 2008 - 9:57 PM"of course now we're straying into the realm of culturally constructed observer-dependent categories, how do you think that connects to this developmental question mr. women's studies masters student? ; )"
i think you did a pretty good job of doing justice to the complexity of variables interacting, actually! language is almost always a simplification, and the fabric of experience much more subtle and nuanced than our words for it. what counts as sexual or not, what counts as orientation or not - all this is contestable in a landscape with a continuity of features in it.
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Wed, September 17, 2008 - 1:52 PMIt must be just infuriating to so many people that so far things can only be supported or undermined but never PROVEN.
Maybe there is some way we could just change things so they will be the way we want them to be.
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Re: sexual orientation thread 2
Wed, September 17, 2008 - 11:31 PMi've gotten used to it.
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