Wha happened to this tribe?

topic posted Thu, January 17, 2008 - 6:38 PM by  D
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Here, let me help - this should be like kicking sand into someone's face on the beach.
I believe in group selection!
Old woman in the tribe is exceptionally intelligent, happens to posses 98 percent recall, happens to exceptionally nurturing and a naturally gifted teacher. Her fellow tribesmen, mostly related to her at some level, treat her with respect and follow her advice - call her the medicine woman. Even if this amazing woman does not procreate at all, wouldn't she contribute to a greater number of offspring in enough directly related individuals to increase their numbers of surviving offspring into the following generations to a very significant degree? Also, with language and her innate teaching ability she may contribute yet after death. Isn't this group selection?
On another level - where would any of us be if not for Newton?
posted by:
D
offline D
New Mexico
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  • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

    Fri, January 18, 2008 - 4:58 AM
    "Isn't this group selection? "

    Um...no. It's kin selection so far (the gene is increasing in frequency because of inclusive fitness). To be group selection, different tribes would have to differ in viability based on whether members had the gene such that the proportion of tribes in which the gene was present would increase at the expense of tribes in which the gene was absent (and the proportion of individuals would presumably also increase thereby).
    • D
      D
      offline 104

      Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

      Fri, January 18, 2008 - 7:14 AM
      But is it not true that we evolved in small groups or tribes who were all pretty much genetically related - like a small town in the southern Appalachia? The old woman is related to most in the tribe and she is allowing a theoretically greater number than “normal” (greater than other surrounding groups) to survive. As well as passing on instructions exogenitcally that enable “her” tribe to continue to prosper in these significantly greater than normal numbers perhaps for many generations to come?
      • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

        Fri, January 18, 2008 - 8:01 AM
        "But is it not true that we evolved in small groups or tribes who were all pretty much genetically related - like a small town in the southern Appalachia? The old woman is related to most in the tribe and she is allowing a theoretically greater number than “normal” (greater than other surrounding groups) to survive. As well as passing on instructions exogenitcally that enable “her” tribe to continue to prosper in these significantly greater than normal numbers perhaps for many generations to come?"

        Well, *that's* the question! I don't have a kneejerk reaction to Group Selection like Dawkins does, but if kin selection adequately explains the spread of a trait, you cant invoke group selection unless you you can demonstrate that selection at the level of the group is actually going on. You can certainly model this type of group selection though--it is therefore logically consistent and possible under certain conditions. Whether it actually occurs is another question.
        • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

          Fri, January 18, 2008 - 8:44 PM
          i wouldn't even know what "selection at the level of the group" means, since the group doesn't have a singular means of inheritance. the gene has got to be the unit, unless you're talking about cultural creatures, wherein survival/reproduction affecting traits may be inherited outside the genome. what looks like group selection is just individuals sharing a fate, no? even kin selection in the end is genetic selection... maybe i just don't really get the debate somehow. am i getting something wrong?
          • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

            Sat, January 19, 2008 - 12:14 AM
            Think of it this way. Suppose there was a gene that somehow helped a definable group as a whole. A "jumping on the hand-grenade" sort of gene. In the case a hand-grenade threatened the group, you'd jump on the grenade. You would die, to save say five other members of the group. If everyone in the group had this gene, in a hand-grenade battle the group with the gene would easily beat the group without the gene. The gene would prosper due to group selection. This in spite of the fact that it would be better for any one individual to not have the gene (if all your buddies in the group have the gene and you don't, there's not much chance of you getting killed).

            It's still natural selection, just at the level of the group and not the individual.
          • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

            Sat, January 19, 2008 - 8:46 AM
            "i wouldn't even know what "selection at the level of the group" means, since the group doesn't have a singular means of inheritance. the gene has got to be the unit, unless you're talking about cultural creatures, wherein survival/reproduction affecting traits may be inherited outside the genome. what looks like group selection is just individuals sharing a fate, no? even kin selection in the end is genetic selection... maybe i just don't really get the debate somehow. am i getting something wrong?"

            Jonathan captured the dynamic involved pretty well. Groups (packs, herds, hives, etc.) can act as corporate 'entities' in a way analogous to organisms (and multicellular organisms *are* themselves groups--groups of cells cooperating to further their shared genes). Groups that prosper so that they surpass their optimal size can 'reproduce' by fission. Groups compete for resources by defending territories, and defeated groups--having lost control of vital resources, can 'die' if their members either die or disperse. The gene is still the unit of inheritance, but when individual success is predicated on group success (as with group hunting, group territorial defense, etc) and at least some members of groups are highly related, things like altruism directed at nonrelated group members can be adaptive if the benefit to the group as a whole confers benefit to related individuals. If groups differ in relative success due to the alleles carried by constituent members and group success at least partly determines individual success, then the relative success of groups can (in theory) drive genetic change. This isn't actually particularly controversial--it's orthodox theory that you will find in the evolution texts (including Futuyma). How often this actually occurs (if ever) is a question that remains to be settled.
            • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

              Sat, January 19, 2008 - 12:58 PM
              well, it sure sounds a lot like a looser kind of kin selection to me. maybe it's "kin" that needs to be redefined along a wider coefficient of relatedness, and the controversy disappears?
              • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

                Sat, January 19, 2008 - 1:06 PM
                you all are probably familiar with the debate occurring in new scientist between e.o. and d.s. wilson and dawkins -- i mentioned it over in the evolution tribe. since my posts, dawkins has written a much longer commentary on the wilsons' attempt to resurrect group selection. i have to say, richard sounds right on, as usual:


                "Comment: The group delusion
                12 January 2008
                From New Scientist Print Edition. Subscribe and get 4 free issues.
                Richard Dawkins

                EDWARD WILSON has given us a characteristically fascinating account of the evolution of social insects (see "Kinship doesn't matter - how insects are altruistic" and BioScience, vol 58, p 17). But his "group selection" terminology is misleading, and his distinction between "kin selection" and "individual direct selection" is empty.

                What matters is gene selection. All we need ask of a purportedly adaptive trait is, "What makes a gene for that trait increase in frequency?" Wilson wrongly implies that explanations should resort to kin selection only when "direct" selection fails. Here he falls for the first of my "12 misunderstandings of kin selection"; that is, he thinks it is a special, complex kind of natural selection, which it is not.

                “Edward Wilson thinks kin selection is a special, complex kind of natural selection, which it is not”
                In the true sense of kin selection, offspring are "kin" just as siblings are. Parental care and sibling care both evolve because copies of genes for caring are present in beneficiaries. Genes promoting feeding of larvae by sterile workers are passed on by those larvae - sisters, nephews, and so on - destined to become reproductives. That's kin selection, and it maintains sterile worker castes in insect colonies. Wilson could not dispute that.

                What he does dispute - perhaps correctly - is that eusociality originated through related females clubbing together because of kinship. It could also originate through unrelated females nesting together. But to call this "group selection" is massively confusing. A better approach is John Maynard Smith's concept of evolutionarily stable strategies (ESS). "Stable" means that when most individuals follow the strategy, no alternative does better. If "breed cooperatively" were a stable strategy for unrelated females, this would furnish a good preadaptation for the evolution of eusociality.

                Jane Brockmann, now at the University of Florida, Gainesville, and I explored this with an ESS model developed with Alan Grafen of the University of Oxford, using Brockmann's fieldwork on solitary digger wasps, Sphex ichneumoneus. When following the "dig" strategy, a female digs a burrow, provisions it with prey on which she lays a single egg, seals the burrow and departs. But burrows may be abandoned and this opens the way for an alternative strategy: "enter" an existing burrow and take it over, saving the time and effort of digging. The disadvantage is that the original owner may not have abandoned the burrow, and you run the risk of a dangerous fight. So the decision whether to enter or dig is a gamble.

                With too much entering in the population, not enough new burrows get dug and chances rise that a given burrow will be occupied. Selection would therefore favour digging. With too much digging, many abandoned burrows go begging, and individuals should enter instead. Grafen's ESS model predicted an equilibrium frequency of digging versus entering with equal benefits to each. Brockmann's field measurements were rich enough to test this prediction, and it was, with reservations, fulfilled.

                Brockmann and I then postulated an ecological "landscape" over which the parameters governing Grafen's model might vary. A change in ecological conditions might move digger wasps from an "aggressive space" strategy, as used by S. ichneumoneus, to "tolerant space" - where diggers benefit from being joined by an enterer. From here there is a smooth gradient to "cooperative space", where both parties benefit from sharing. Our review of the literature uncovered wasp species that apparently take such intermediate positions. From here, the evolutionary journey to full eusociality is easy.

                Revealingly, Wilson's great book Sociobiology allots only four sentences - in the chapter on group selection - to ESS theory. Kin selection is also here, as a form of group selection! Evidently Wilson's weird infatuation with "group selection" goes way back: unfortunate in a biologist who is so justly influential.

                From issue 2638 of New Scientist magazine, 12 January 2008, page 17"
              • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

                Sat, January 19, 2008 - 2:14 PM
                "well, it sure sounds a lot like a looser kind of kin selection to me. maybe it's "kin" that needs to be redefined along a wider coefficient of relatedness, and the controversy disappears?"

                What controversy? It's 'Group Selection' because it is driven by the relative success (relative extinction rates) of groups of individuals as coherent units. Dawkins thinks that's misleading. It's clearly not misleading to evolutionary biologists and I see no point in tweaking what is clearly *appropriate and accepted* terminology just so non-biologists won't get confused between the Wynne-Edwards nonsense and the kind of Group Selection that is both theoretically possible (can be modeled) and has been demonstrated experimentally. Levin and Kilmer (1974. Interdemic selection and the evolution of altruism: a computer simulation study. Evolution 28:527-545) demonstrated that an altruistic allele *can* be maintained in a fixed or polymorphic state by Group Selection, but only under restrictive conditions (the allele must not be too detrimental to its bearers, on average, must appreciably enhance the survival of the population, there must be little gene flow among demes, and the demes must be fairly small (10-25 individuals). Wade (1977. An experimental study of group selection. Evolution 31:134-153) demonstrated experimentally that group selection can counteract individual selection.
                Dawkins either doesn't understand the subtleties of selection at multiple levels, or he doesn't think *you* are capable of understanding them. Or he is blinded by his own dogma and is constitutionally unable to accept what is clear to the rest of us. In any case, he is wrong.
                • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

                  Sat, January 19, 2008 - 2:40 PM
                  i'm having trouble caring about what seems to be a semantic argument at this point. i can see the multiple organizational levels at work and interacting, and that's really what it comes down to. call it whatever the hell you want for all i care!
                • Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

                  Sat, January 19, 2008 - 2:52 PM
                  can i go back to my question of kin? because groups don't just form around nothing -- they are related, by species (which we take for granted sometimes, it seems), region, tribe. where's the cutoff for "kin"? is there some "r" where you don't count as kin anymore? even altruism that seems to be defined a la "group" seems to me to be loosely related beings -- otherwise there would be no shared gene to account for it. am i muddled here?
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: Wha happened to this tribe?

                    Sun, January 20, 2008 - 7:33 AM
                    "can i go back to my question of kin? because groups don't just form around nothing -- they are related, by species (which we take for granted sometimes, it seems), region, tribe. where's the cutoff for "kin"? is there some "r" where you don't count as kin anymore? even altruism that seems to be defined a la "group" seems to me to be loosely related beings -- otherwise there would be no shared gene to account for it. am i muddled here?"

                    Not muddled, no. The conditions required for Group Selection (especially small deme size and low gene flow among demes) pretty much guarantee a high degree of relatedness within the deme. It's probably a mistake to look at Kin Selection and Group Selection as either/or. If/when the conditions permitting Group Selection apply, Group Selection and Kin Selection will be working in tandem and mutually reinforcing. But especially with the condition of low gene flow, the mechanism for the spread of the gene beyond the deme in which it arises could be dominated by differential extinction rates among demes based on whether or not constituent members carry the allele. This is not the general case for Kin Selection. In fact Kin Selection can operate just fine in organisms that don't live in groups at all.

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